Walter Russell Mead （WRM）: I think that’s right. Maybe what we should do is talk about a few hotspots and    then get back to the sort of overarching issue, if that works and I think the first thing that would be on a lot of people’s mind would be the US-China relationship, where in some ways, oddly, even though US political climate has become very polarized, we’ve seen a continuation. The Obama administration began a rebalance toward     Asia. Today, you hear from many Democrats, as well as many Republicans a concern about what’s going on in China and the future of the relationship. How do you see a Biden administration getting sort of setting itself up to deal with China?

Tony Blinken: Well, first of all, I think you’re right. There is a growing consensus across parties that China        poses a series of new challenges and that the status quo was really not sustainable particularly  when  it comes to China’s commercial and economic practices, the lack of reciprocity in the relationships  or  something  that   couldn’t be sustained and needed to be and continue to need to be dealt with.

Here’s the problem and again, take a step back, my concern now is that in terms of China’s strategic interests and in terms of our own, China, as a result of the last three and a half years is in a stronger position and we’re in a weaker position and that’s what a Biden administration would have to start to rebuild from. What do I      mean by that?

If you think about what China would hope to achieve strategically around the world, unfortunately, in my              judgment, the Trump administration has helped them advance their interests. Weaker US  alliances,   China  sees alliances as a core source of strength for the United States, something they don’t share and enjoy.           Unfortunately,  the way President Trump has pursued his policies that’s weakened, not strengthened our core    alliances, particularly in Asia.

Institutions, China’s trying to assert its own leadership in international institutions at the expense of our own. Well, our own withdrawal from virtually every institution you can think of has left an opening for China to fill.

When it comes to values, our abdication of standing up for our own values and in Asia and with regard to        China’s actions, has, I think, given the government in Beijing,  a sense of greater impunity when it  comes  to  cracking down on democracy in Hong Kong or for that matter, dealing and abusing the human rights of Uyghurs in China.

Finally, our own democracy, when it is weak, when it looks like it’s in disarray, when it seems not to be            delivering from for its people when people are questioning its legitimacy, that is arguably good for China          because our model looks less attractive than it otherwise would. Well, I think President Trump, unfortunately,  has led an assault on our own democracy,  its institutions,  its values,  its people that is  served to further         delegitimize it, not just in the eyes of Americans but around the world. In  that  sense,  I’ m  afraid  we’ re  at  a strategic  disadvantage. China is at a strategic advantage at this particular moment.

Having said that, how would we approach things? A few things that are worth underscoring, first,  it’s  vital        because we are in a competition with China and there’s nothing wrong with competition if it’s fair. In fact, it      hopefully brings out in some ways the best. We need, in the first instance, to invest in our own                       competitiveness. That means making some very fundamental reorientation of resources and priorities when it comes to investing in American infrastructure, American education,    the health care system, our workers and their competitiveness.

Second, one of the things I think that’s been a deficiency in the Trump administration’s approach to contending with China is it’s done so not with our allies and partners but without them, indeed while alienating them. We     need to rally our allies and partners instead of alienating them to deal with some of the challenges that China poses.

For example, on trade, as you know, Walter, we’re about 25% of world GDP alone. When we’re working with        allies and partners, depending on who we bring into the mix, it’s 50 or 60% of GDP. That’s a lot more weight and a lot harder for China to ignore.

Third, we need to be standing up for our values and put them back at the center of our foreign policy, not walk away from them. We obviously need to be in a place to effectively deter aggression, if China pursues it.

Finally, I think you’d see a Biden demonstration having reestablished a relative strength in the relationship,      then be able to engage China and work with China, in areas where our interests clearly overlap,  whether   it is  again, contending with climate change, dealing with global health and pandemics, dealing with the spread of        dangerous weapons. We’re much better off though, finding ways to cooperate when we’re acting from a      position of strength than from a position of weakness.